Storytelling Converts Better Than Sales Tactics Every Time

John Jantsch (00:01.166)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is David Garfunkel. I messed his name up. It’s Gar-finkle. Sorry about that. We do one take here, so you’re going to have to live with that, David. He’s a renowned copywriting expert, author, and coach, widely regarded as one of the world’s leading authorities on persuasive communication. He’s spent decades helping businesses, entrepreneurs, and

David Garfinkel (00:15.624)

I’ll live with it.

John Jantsch (00:29.55)

marketers craft compelling messages that drive results. We’re going to talk about his latest book, the persuasion story code, the magic of conversational storytelling. So David Garfinkel, welcome to the show. So before we get into the content of the book, storytelling has become a pretty hot topic in, especially in marketing circles. Number of books I’ve interviewed, a number of authors that have read about it. So I always like to start with, you know,

David Garfinkel (00:43.08)

Thanks, John.

David Garfinkel (00:49.886)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (00:59.66)

What do you feel like you offer that’s different in this book?

David Garfinkel (01:03.144)

Well, to put it bluntly, I offer stories that people can learn quickly and use immediately that aren’t going to put their listeners to sleep or go, what is he talking about?

John Jantsch (01:15.214)

Well, in fact, let’s dive right into that. You have, I don’t know, 25 or so what you call mini story frameworks.

David Garfinkel (01:23.56)

Yeah, there, I call them persuasion stories and, they are actually stories we tell every day, but we don’t realize it. And sometimes when we tell them, they’re not as persuasive as they could be. I show you how to make them persuasive without coming across like a carnival barker, but just like a normal human being telling a story.

John Jantsch (01:37.006)

Alright.

John Jantsch (01:47.211)

Can you give me a couple of examples of how you would apply some of those story frameworks in, particularly in marketing circles?

David Garfinkel (01:56.724)

Sure. Well, let me turn the tables on you for just a second for the first one and empathy story, you know? So, John, I know you do a podcast. I do one too. And sometimes it can be stressful because the guest doesn’t show up or they get tongue tied and they’re tripping over their words. And it’s always a good idea to have

a backup, a way to get yourself out of it. That’s what I call an empathy story. Now, you’re obviously an experienced guy and you probably have a dozen backups or workarounds. I mean, even as I was saying that to you, didn’t you feel like I knew you just a little better?

John Jantsch (02:44.184)

Sure, sure, sure, sure, no question that most podcasters have been through the same thing. So yeah, absolutely.

David Garfinkel (02:52.336)

And I want to point out that story has a beginning and a middle, but it doesn’t have an end. You know, it opens the door for me to sell you my brand new $10,000 course, backups and workarounds for tongue tied guests, right? Which is, of course, is a joke and I don’t really have that.

John Jantsch (02:57.07)

Okay.

John Jantsch (03:16.344)

Yes, that would be a short course, right? So you introduce the idea, you’ve probably trademarked this even, of stories with a dollar sign to start the S. You want to talk a little bit about that concept?

David Garfinkel (03:17.844)

Right. Exactly.

David Garfinkel (03:36.082)

Yeah, so what most people think of stories, they think of a novel, you know, they might think of an Orphan X novel. I love those novels myself or, you know, a Lee Child Jack Reacher novel or maybe an 18th century Emily Bronte novel or something. 19th century, guess. But those are very long stories. And I call them stories with the dollar sign because we have to pay money.

to read them, see them, you know, even cable TV movies were paying a cable bill or were paying some kind of bill for that. And so those cost us money and usually well worth it, but that’s why it has a dollar sign instead of an S at the beginning. Stories, the other type persuasion stories are stories that make us money, stories that help us build trust, build rapport. And in some cases, certain kinds of stories close sales.

And they’re much shorter. They’re much simpler. They don’t have lots of characters and character development and an inner journey and an outer journey and, you know, mentors and villains and all that stuff that you need for an entertainment story. The story with a dollar sign. Otherwise, why would anyone bother paying for it? If it’s not interesting.

John Jantsch (04:57.634)

So that story you started with, the empathy story, is that something that, you know, particularly when it comes to resonating with the target audience that you’re trying to attract? I mean, is that an essential piece of even getting started?

David Garfinkel (05:13.488)

It’s one way to do it. I think it’s the best way. There are other ways. You can cite statistics. can talk about, there’s another kind of story called a story about what’s going on in the world today. A lot of people in the financial marketing space call this a top of mind story because it’s about the news and it connects with what the person’s thinking, but it doesn’t always connect with what they’re feeling. Now, if it’s very pitched, if it’s political about a point that

your target market strongly agrees with, then it does have an emotional connection.

John Jantsch (05:47.662)

do you make stories, I mean, you see people trying to do this and they come off sort of canned. How do you make a story feel very conversational? mean, do you have some elements that you bring to that or is that just you’re a good writer or you just intuitively know this? mean, how do you get that conversation?

David Garfinkel (06:09.042)

Well, sometimes it takes practice and some people are better at this naturally than others. But basically, if you’re talking about something you already know, whether it’s about yourself or your product, or most likely about your prospect and their pains or their dreams or their hopes, or some imagined future that you can provide for them, deliver to them, it’ll come across more naturally. It’s really when you try to be someone you’re not.

You remember Hal Holbrook and he did all the Mark Twain stuff. I mean, there’s a professional storyteller. My gosh, he spent years and years honing his craft and probably spent hours in makeup, making himself look like Mark Twain and all the rest. That’s not what you do as a business person unless you’re in the entertainment business. It’s what you do as a salesperson is you talk to people, you talk to them.

about what they need about their problems about a solution that you have and to deliver the same information you’re already delivering conversationally but in a story form it’s just going to work a little better.

John Jantsch (07:17.912)

So a lot of what you’re talking about selling is getting the order. So you tell a story, you get some rapport, bring in some empathy, but ultimately you have to say, now. So how do you work a call to action in that meets the same meter as the story?

David Garfinkel (07:37.8)

Well, the interesting thing is a lot of people think that when you tell a persuasion story, the persuasion story has to close the deal and it doesn’t. What I like to say is it moves the prospect closer. So you can tell a story that eliminates a projection. You know, some people think that this $10,000 podcast workaround course isn’t for them. But let me tell you about George. He was always getting these

guests that started drooling when they come to this podcast and and we taught them how to get them to actually wipe the saliva off their mouth before. Okay, terrible example. But you get the point. You’re just telling about something that happened. And in the process, you’re giving an example that obliterates an objection. So getting over objections is one of the most important steps in closing a sale. There

is one story having there and the I don’t remember the official name I gave it but the shorthand is the choice of one where it basically eliminates all the other alternatives you can tell that story talk about how all of the competition doesn’t do this but we do doesn’t do this but we do doesn’t do this but we do and that can be pretty close to okay would you like one you know

John Jantsch (08:47.726)

Ahem.

John Jantsch (09:03.342)

So are the stories that you are explaining in the book need to be in print, need to be spoken? Are there differences to the medium or to where they’re encountered?

David Garfinkel (09:18.652)

No, no difference. mean, when I, I’m of the school direct response marketing that copy is basically the spoken language in written form. So anything written in copy could be spoken out loud. And so the words would be the same. Now there are other people I know who think that copy needs to be big and bold and, flamboyant. And I think that’s more like a story with the dollar sign. It’s very entertaining, but

John Jantsch (09:30.798)

You

David Garfinkel (09:48.857)

In my experience, rarely works in actually getting new customers.

John Jantsch (09:55.246)

Can you use this technique to get attention? know one of the chores for a lot of marketers is just people have shorter attention spans, the world is cluttered, search engines take people where they want to take them. mean, can you use this to really get that initial attention in your view?

David Garfinkel (10:14.884)

Sure. There are four types of origin stories that I have in chapter three, and any one of those could very easily get attention. The coffee that I’m drinking here is made with my favorite device in the world. The Aerobi Aeropress costs about 30 bucks and it makes delicious coffee. And I actually include their origin story, which is not all that dramatic.

from their website, but if you wanted to get more attention, could say, know, that was the last cup of coffee at the office I could take, you know, burned flavorless. I was going out of my mind. And then I thought, and that will get someone’s attention. And then he can describe how he invented and tested and perfected and rolled out and offers this aerobie aeropress for 39 bucks as opposed to.

$2,000 for an espresso machine. It makes better coffee. So you can use origin stories to get attention. You can also use an empathy story if you start talking about somebody’s pain. could be talking, you’re selling a remedy for joint pain. could say, you wake up in the morning and once again, you dread to get up.

not because you’re sleepy, but because you know that your joints are going to hurt and soon it starts to feel like sandpaper. know, somebody who is in the market for something to get rid of that feeling is going to pay attention.

John Jantsch (11:55.192)

Does a story in this format have a headline? Does it need to have a headline?

David Garfinkel (12:00.084)

Well, the story is a component of a sales pitch or of a sales letter. So the sales letter probably should have a headline. Yeah. In fact, you can even start your story in the headline. mean, one of the most famous ads ever was the John Capel’s ad. They laughed when I sat down at the piano, but when I began to play, you know, and then he

John Jantsch (12:08.524)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (12:21.262)

I knew that’s where you’re headed, yeah. Right, right, right, yeah.

David Garfinkel (12:26.992)

And then he actually develops the story. It’s about one sixth of the whole ad. So it’s not a long story, but it’s it’s, you know, it’s a it’s a failure success problem solution kind of story. And he wrote it about 101 years ago and we still talk about.

John Jantsch (12:28.045)

Meh.

John Jantsch (12:43.276)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So what are some of the biggest mistakes that you see people making when, really trying to persuade through story telling?

David Garfinkel (12:52.944)

TMI, too much information. just, they try to tell everything. They can go into way too much technical detail. mean, stories get translated into pictures in people’s minds. And if the picture is too ornate and detailed, they’re not going to be able to process it before you move to the next point in the story. Also, sometimes people are pushing too hard in the story and you don’t need to push. You’re just moving people gently from where they are to, want it.

And sometimes there’s no, there’s no momentum at all. The story is just sort of sitting there and it’s going, it’s not focused. It’s going around in circles and it’s not very persuasive.

John Jantsch (13:39.864)

Can people learn, how would you tell, obviously, your book gives them a lot of training, but I think the best writers, maybe you agree with this, the best writers are commonly readers of a lot of things. Can we learn anything from our favorite fiction works?

David Garfinkel (13:53.042)

Mm-hmm.

David Garfinkel (14:01.076)

Yeah. So, um, about a hundred years ago, I don’t know why I keep bringing up these old examples. I guess I’m feeling old today. Exactly. Good point to say, um, yeah. Um, there was an actor, I don’t remember her name, but she was, um, CB Demille’s favorite, you know, filmmaker, famous, favorite actor. And she said that every

John Jantsch (14:09.678)

That’s because that’s when we started in business.

David Garfinkel (14:30.51)

And I’m paraphrasing every scene in a movie is a story. So if you realize the kind of stories we’re talking about with persuasion stories are little little bricks that that build the wall of a whole story with a dollar sign. And so I think if you I mean, you know, my my go to favorites are Stephen King, Lee Child wrote the Jack Reacher books and

John Jantsch (14:46.467)

Yeah.

David Garfinkel (14:59.7)

Greg Hurwitz who wrote the orphan X-books, all of those guys, they, they write very tight, moving and I don’t just mean emotionally moving. mean, there’s some momentum in the story. They write little snippets of things that happen, little scenes that are complete stories in themselves. And those are, those are really good examples. had one client, who was crazy Jack Reacher fan.

And he was having trouble with some stuff. And I told him, get five or six of your favorite Jack Reacher books and just copy the first page. Hand copy it word for word. Not to use in anything, not to violate copyright, not to be plagiarist, but just to get a sense of the rhythm and the tone and the feel. And he did. And it transformed him.

John Jantsch (15:40.578)

Yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (15:48.43)

Huh. I was going to ask you for a success story, but that’s a pretty good one right there. Let’s talk a little bit about AI and storytelling automation. mean, is this going to compliment or hinder what you’re teaching? Yeah.

David Garfinkel (15:57.908)

Sure.

David Garfinkel (16:05.97)

Both. So I’m taking, you know, the book, The Persuasion Story Code, and I’m creating a video course, which is going to be much more thorough. And I’ve been working with, with, with, what is Rhonda’s last name? You know Rhonda, because she got, she hooked us up. But Rhonda Lynn, she’s been helping me develop an AI feature to go inside.

behind the paywall inside the course. And what I am insisting that it do, even though it doesn’t want to, it wants to write the stories. I don’t like stories that AI writes. It generally screws them up. And sometimes it makes up facts that you won’t catch and that can get you in trouble with your customers or with regulators. But what I’m having it do is draw out of the person key points in the story so that you come up with an outline in your own words.

John Jantsch (16:43.404)

Yeah, right.

David Garfinkel (17:03.86)

through a conversation with the AI. And I prefer to use AI that way a lot where I’m very good at interviewing people, but I also enjoy being interviewed. As you can tell, you’re interviewing me right now and I enjoy having a conversation with an AI when it asks me good questions. So you’ll basically answer six questions with a single sentence and it’ll arrange those sentences for you and you have the outline of your story.

John Jantsch (17:09.923)

Yeah.

David Garfinkel (17:33.46)

I think the problem with AI writing in general and writing stories in specific is there’s something that whether you’re good at writing stories or writing copy or writing conversationally or not, you and everyone else has a life experience, has had a lot of conversations with people, has a spidey sense, you know what’s real and what’s phony.

John Jantsch (17:54.702)

All

John Jantsch (17:59.116)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

David Garfinkel (18:01.616)

AI knows what it’s been fed and it’s training by its developers. And sometimes the stuff it comes up with, plus AI seems to have this, I don’t know, algorithm or tendency to want to make everything better and inspirational at the end, even if that’s not what you want to do. And so you end up editing it and you could end up spending more time editing it than you would have if you’d written in the first place.

John Jantsch (18:04.27)

It’s just predicting.

John Jantsch (18:30.36)

Well, I’m really happy to hear you describe it that way because I’ve been saying for a long time that our job now is going to be provide context. And I think that that’s really what you’re describing because it can’t do that.

David Garfinkel (18:39.262)

Perfect. Our job is to provide it. It really can’t. Now you can do more of that than you might have imagined by giving it rules, but even figuring out what those rules are is quite a mental strategic exercise in itself and then communicating it, figuring out how to communicate it so it’s effective to the AI is also an exercise in itself. But you can do more with AI and get higher quality output than you thought.

John Jantsch (18:50.946)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (19:02.414)

Yeah.

David Garfinkel (19:08.798)

When it comes to something like stories, I’m not sure.

John Jantsch (19:11.926)

Yeah. Yeah, I think you just have to treat it as that assistant, is what I’ve told people. I mean, you can even, I’ve had a lot of luck with, I mean, never had luck with saying, write something, but I have had good luck with saying, could you make this sentence better? You know, things along that line. And then it will bring in lots of stuff because you’ve trained it.

Is there a formula like a must-have? You must have an object of desire. There must be a climax. There must be all those kind of types of commandments.

David Garfinkel (19:47.556)

For stories Well, these these stories are are different I mean in in the typical heroes journey story there are those rules but a hero’s journey story is two hours long and has many pieces to it in There are specific rules, but they’re different for an origin story than they are for an empathy story an empathy story All of the story I call there are four types and I call them

John Jantsch (19:48.696)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (19:56.93)

Right. Yeah.

Yeah.

David Garfinkel (20:15.238)

stories about what your customer is experiencing. Those generally only have a beginning and a middle. There are case study stories and, and, know, with, with case studies and other proof stories, testimonials that are effective. You generally want to have a crisis and obstacle away. The person overcame the obstacle and

a positive resolution and that’s, that’s a lot like a typical hero’s journey story sort of shrunken down to two or three minutes. So it depends.

John Jantsch (20:51.918)

Yeah. Yeah. I’m curious. This is my own curiosity. Who did you read? Who did you learn from when you were getting started?

David Garfinkel (21:04.44)

in storytelling or copyright? my gosh. Well, Gary Halbert was the guy. I read all his newsletters. I went to one of his seminars, it changed my life, Hurricane Andrew.

John Jantsch (21:05.942)

Well, copywriting period, yeah.

John Jantsch (21:11.406)

All right.

John Jantsch (21:16.461)

What was it? From Fish Creek or something like that? Where did you write from? I can’t remember what the…

David Garfinkel (21:21.464)

let’s see, no, it was, well, he was in Key West, but he was south of, something, do fish key or something like that. I Yeah. but I read all the classics. read scientific advertising 15 times. and, it’s, not even a very enjoyable book, but incredibly valuable.

John Jantsch (21:32.45)

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (21:39.544)

Right. Yeah.

David Garfinkel (21:48.314)

I like Gene Schwartz’s book a lot, Breakthrough Advertising. I’ve been reading it for 30 years. I still keep getting new things out of it. I love Joe Sugarman’s book. was originally called Advertising Secrets of the Written Word. It is reissued at a much better price by Adweek Magazine, and it’s, I think now called the Adweek Copywriting Guide. And that’s one of my top books. So I’ve read a lot of copywriting books.

John Jantsch (21:51.278)

Yeah.

David Garfinkel (22:16.239)

A few of them have been really good, like those.

John Jantsch (22:20.568)

So David, I appreciate you taking a moment to stop by the podcast. Where can people find out more about your work? Certainly learn more about the frameworks and obviously pick up a copy of the persuasion story code. I’ve been sick with a headache today and so I’m like, can’t talk.

David Garfinkel (22:40.468)

That’s okay. That’s okay. No, you’re doing great. Thank you persuasion story code Persuasion story code is available on amazon the persuasion story code because some people look for the persuasion code, which is a different book you can find me on linkedin and and twitter x or x or twitter And I have a podcast myself copywriters podcast. It’s um

You find a copywriters podcast.com. We’re also on all of the platforms. you know, Spotify and, Apple podcasts and all the rest. if, if someone is, has a fairly robust business or they’re doing pretty well as a copywriter and they want coaching, can go to Garfinkel coaching.com and, I think that’s about it. I don’t know.

John Jantsch (23:38.528)

Awesome. Well, again, I appreciate you taking a few moments out of the day to stop by the podcast and hopefully we’ll hopefully we’ll thank you. Hopefully we’ll run into you one of these days out there on the

David Garfinkel (23:39.592)

Yeah.

David Garfinkel (23:43.873)

thanks for having me. My pleasure. Great questions too.

David Garfinkel (23:50.312)

That sounds good. I like that.